So, my spouse still wants to "see" the old me every now and then.

Comment by Natalie Terry on July 22, 2010 at 8:11pm

honey this is a difficult one specially as its the person you love most in the world i actually cried when i read this as it brought back memories
But you are going to have to be strong and say no i cant be him anymore
I had that when i transitioned
Its such a tough thing to do babes

Good Luck x

Comment by Melanie Cee on July 22, 2010 at 8:32pm

Michelle,
Sorry to say this but she either does not fully accept you as Michelle or she has no idea how important to your well being transition truly is to have requested such a thing. You and your spouse are where we were at about 10 years ago.We are still married and very much together. It was difficult at 1st because even after 25yrs of marriage we were still affectionate in public,holding hands, a quick kiss good-bye when dropping her off at the office where she worked so I do understand where your wife is coming from. I so missed that until the day she grabbed my hand and said "I don't care what they think". Our lesbian friends dubbed her a "lesbian by default". As tough a journey transition can be for us I feel that it sometimes far more so for those that choose to stay in the relationship. I know people told Mary she needed to talk to her minister, seek God's help, was crazy, you need professional mental help, the list goes on. I completed the 1st half of transition with my surgeries in 11/23/02 and now people tell her she should write a book. Come to think about it maybe she is crazy. Naw, I am too loveable. Good luck and if I,we can be any help do not hesitate to contact us.

Comment by Jennifer Lewis on July 22, 2010 at 11:38pm

Wow. That's so hard, Michelle. And many of us (including me) I know have been there or are there now.

My answer might be a little more off the beaten path, in that I think whatever you and your spouse can negotiate that both of you are happy with is perfectly acceptable. You both need to determine your priorities, what things are negotiable, and what things are not. This takes a lot of self-insight, both in terms of your needs and your values. Don't let anyone else tell you and your spouse what your marriage has to look like. If you're okay with this and you feel good about an act of love given to your spouse, then you can do it; it's your choice.

The thing is, though, just that typically that's not a negotiable for the bulk of us, from what I have seen. Living in two worlds really becomes impossible; you can't be both him and yourself. Unfortunately, she's hurting so badly over something you cannot seemingly give. There is little to be done about that... except to try to love each other anyway. Treat each other with respect and grace. Make yourself vulnerable.

Besides telling her that you'll leave, have you told her how badly it hurts you to see her hurting, and you wish you could give her what she wants but you tried in the past, and now you can't... but you grieve because of that? I have found that where my wife and I made real progress in our relationship is when we were willing to stop internalizing everything (while avoiding acting out of trying to control the other person) and just really be open about what was in our hearts -- how bad we felt for each other, how we still loved each other but couldn't budge on some points, how we wished we could make it work. We are still very close, but it's only because we were honest and compassionate even if I could not give her what she wanted and vice versa.

This really is a grieving process. Her husband is dying. I did my grieving along the way, I didn't fight it, but my wife did not accept that her husband was gone until five months after I went full-time and we had a heart-to-heart where she realized that she needed to let go of the man and embrace me as the person I was now, even if she didn't agree with it. She realized that our relationship as it was at that time was over, and now we needed to move to the next chapter. That was a hard conversation because I didn't want to hurt her, but I had to be compassionately blunt with her so that she'd finally accept things. This is the cost of making these decisions to change your life in this fashion; your wife is going to be hurt, and you have to watch her hurting (and hurting yourself over it), and then let her hurt until she works through things without trying to derail the process. She needs to grieve so she can move on.

My advice is to be gentle but graciously firm with her about what you can and can't do.
Take heart, things will not always be in this painful place.

Comment by Michelle L on July 23, 2010 at 12:13am

"Besides telling her that you'll leave, have you told her how badly it hurts you to see her hurting, and you wish you could give her what she wants but you tried in the past, and now you can't... but you grieve because of that?"

Yes dear, I have.

Natalie, I'm sorry. I didnt mean to make you cry.

"But you are going to have to be strong and say no i cant be him anymore" - Well, im 100% fulltime right now. So I guess I can be 'him' but it hurts so much.

See, 2007 was my year. I came out to everyone that didnt know, got on hormones, found "my voice", had an orchiectomy, enrolled in cosmetology school andwent fulltime. Things were great. But something happened in which made me decide not to transition. My orchiectomy kind of went south. The doctor did not cartarize things correctly, and I bled internally up to my navel.

I had a bruise about a foot in diameter and certain 'areas' swelled up the size of a grapefruit. So I had to go back to the surgeon for 5-6 weeks to get the blood drained (OMG disgusting). I guess it scared me to the point I didnt want to transition anymore. So for the last three years, I put my transition on hold because it scared me so bad. But I was depressed that I couldnt be me - and had to embrace that in surgeries, bad stuff can happen.

So I Just started retransitioning again two months ago. Got back on HRT, letting hair grow, and getting laser on the face. I have to do this for me.

I'm debating to get hair extensions and just going FT right now. I know I can change my gender to "F" on my birth certificate because of my orchi, but I'm not sure its the right thing to do (at this time).

This voice in my head keeps telling me that I think I really need to wait one more year to see the effects of hrt and effects of laser before going fulltime. Plus Hopefully I get 5 inches of hair growth in the one year mark.

I do like to think I am intelligent and plan things out before I make any major decisions in life.

Hugz with love,
Michelle L.

Comment by Rachel King on July 23, 2010 at 5:35am

Melanie has got the balance about right, Michelle,
" I so missed that until the day she grabbed my hand and said "I don't care what they think"."
This does seem to be the key in a marriage surviving. Your wife is trying hard, no doubt about it, but the nagging feeling of what will they all think is ever lurking just below the surface.

I have bought this quote up a few times but as you are new, I shall repeat it, as I do most things.
My partner is a Thai woman, who I hope to return to Oztralia with me in September.
One night in Pattaya, Thailand, I asked her, "How do you feel about loving a woman."
She thought about it for a moment, and in her halting English, she replied," I don't know, I have never loved a woman before. I only know that I love you."
Fair Dinkum, that answer blew me away. It was so simplistic and honest
If your wife can come to terms with this and say," To hell with them, those I lose weren't worth it." You will survive as a couple.
Wait? Wait for what, are you a masochist, haven't you had enough pain.
I'm not into masquerades so pretending to be a boy is akin to putting on a horses head and parading around the streets, or maybe the rear end of the horse,hahaaha.

Work it out with your wife and don't ever look back.
It's a truly golden path ahead, worth any pain.

Comment by Marsha M. Marsha on July 23, 2010 at 6:50am

Michelle, I am in pain reading this because your experiences are so similar to my own. She is going through a grieving process and any process takes time, but unlke engineered processes, we can not calculate the finality and that is a key to our pain and frustration because we want the pain to stop quickly. She is losing her husband and perception of the husband means much to a woman. LIke this or not, married, heterosexual women gather much of their security and contentment from the world's perception of her husband. She is hurting much in part, not only from what she understands to be her loss of her husband, but the person she loves she does not want to see humiliated and in pain. The simple answer is one most couples don't want to face: "despite what everyone else thinks about us or says to us, I love you no matter what gender you present in." Having said that ask the question, would you stay with your wife if she transitioned?

I wish I had a good solution for you. You can only take this a day at a time and love her, but denying who you are will not help you or her in the long run. I tried compromising the truth of my identity and it only brought prolonged agony.

Hugs,
Marsha

Comment by Michelle L on July 24, 2010 at 4:05am

You know... over the years I've sensed a pattern. Maybe it's just me that noticed it, maybe not. Two distinct Types of indiduals:

A. Transsexuals - pre-op/post op
B. Non-op Transgenderists

A. Alot of the transsexuals I've met had a majority of their relationships with women, and gravitate toward women, and are or have been married

B. And alot of the Non-op Transgenderists who want to keep their "male part" prefer men.

Am I missing something? Or is this a common observation by other transwomen?

Just curious. If somehow I offended someone, I will pre-apologize.

Michelle

Comment by Rachel King on July 24, 2010 at 8:28am

What a strange tangent you've gone onto in your blog.
From your wife wanting you to dress as a man on occasion( is this her fetish?) to a divisional question that is going to have a lot of them choking over their morning cereal and caffeine fix.
What you have said is absolute bullshit and I wonder why you would say such nonsense.
Of course, not knowing you, you might spend a lot of your shadow life in those sort of "mens" bars, if so good luck to your poor wife to have to put up with someone with such double standards.
It's really the weirdest statement I have seen put up by anyone here on PE and leaves me shaking my head at the inanities of the human species.
And don't think I am offended, merely bemused at idiocy at it's worst.

Comment by Michelle L on July 24, 2010 at 12:32pm

Well look. I apologize if you think it is a: strange tangent, an idiot, have double standards, speaking bullshit, insane as (all of your words) as it was just an question/observation. Maybe it should have been in a blog of its own perhaps? IDK.

This is why I dont like Myspace, Facebook or any sort of these social networking blog-type things. I really questioned myself for joining PE as I knew there would be attacks just like this. I've noticed many times when someone asks a question about something or raises an opinion about something that they may not understand nor agree with, they are instantly attacked for thinking about something a certain way or having their own thought process that may be albeit different from everyone elses.

God forbid if we are not all robots and have one thought pattern. It's funny, I try not to curse, get mad, be wordly, angry, try to be tolerant of others ignorance and bigotry about us girls and frankly, try to be Christ-like in my life and walk with Him.

A. And to answer your question about my wife, I can understand her wanting me to dress as a 'man' because this is who she fell inlove with and now he is almost dead and it's hurting her terribly. Like sha said, it's like watching someone dying day by day from a terminal disease. And no, it is not a fetish thing for her. What a strange, strange observation.

B. "Shadow life"? Never quite heard of that phrase but I dont go to bars, clubs, socialize with the "world" and its "worldly" activities. The bible says in 2 Corinthians 6:17, "Therefore, come out from among unbelievers and separate yourselves from them, says the LORD. Don't touch their filthy things, and I will welcome you".

C. I dont have double standards. I don't even see where or how you picked that up from anything I said.

Look, bottom line: I never set out to offend anyone on purpose - ever, I swear. I was ONLY starting what me, myself and I have observed. So, with that said, please excuse my for seeing something in life that you haven't.

I was only stating that "I" have noticed that alot of pre/post transsexuals like women and alot of non-ops prefer men. If you feel it's bullshit as you call it, then so be it. It's just something that I've noticed - and heck, mabye it is not the case, it is just what "I PERSONALLY" have observed.

Heres something I'm sure will tick someoneoff: I think there is a different mindset between a girl who is fulltime that wants srs and someone who is fulltime that wants to stay a non-op. But that is only my opinion which I beleieve like some once said that "Opinions are like snowflakes. No two are identical."

But I do thank you for your reply, as it explains to me alot about you and the world. It will however only make me a stronger person, make me more tolerant to peoples opinions and make me think twice what I ask around here. If its just going to get folks mad and attack me, I dont need to be attacked - especially on some on some internet forum, I can get that in life.

PS, are you a little bipolar? You're super nice one minute then the complete opposite the next? Just curious. You know you can take Lithobid or Cibalith-S for that.

There is this thing called tact. I'm not going to be a bitch, so I'll stop right here.

May you have a blessed day. Now you want to see a tangent? I believe you just saw one - seasoned with tact, of course.

Comment by Rachel King on July 24, 2010 at 8:47pm

Hahahaaha, great reply, Michelle, so explain to the unwashed masses how you could possibly come to the conclusion that there are "two distinct patterns" when by your own admission you have never been to any of these "dens of iniquity"?
Great quote from the bible by the way, it's the greatest man-written novel to have it's words lifted and the quotes twisted to suit the writers requirements.
Mind you the Koran is on a steeply rising curve and will challenge for misinterpretation soon, if it doesn't already. Those two man-serving ( no I am not a man-hater by any means, even though most of my best friends aren't, hahaha) have created the vast majority of human-kinds woes over the past 2000 years.
I'm sure Marsha would argue( and no doubt will) that it is peoples interpretation of these words that causes the problems but how many of the worlds ill's might not have been, if these two Novels had been buried along with History. They were created as instruments of control and unfortunately for Humanity, they still succeed.
I have read the large majority of over 3000 blogs on PE over the previous year and there has been little evidence of what you are suggesting as being true. The many comments I have seen written by transwomen and non'op TG's suggest a different story. Of course the fetishist's, of whom I have little experience with, are no doubt true of your comparison but I would think the many, would be offended to be lumped into a group such as you suggest.
Personally, I made it a rule to keep my eyes open to my sexuality until I was post-op but fate stepped in, as she does and a beautiful Lady came into my life.We are no more than two human beings who love each other. We have no need to justify that love to anybody.
And that is why I had such strong comment but yet again people fail to understand that nothing said in cyber-lounges is said personally, it is against some points of what you say that I disagree and labeling all into two groups like that, I found disagreeable.
As I do, chew on, swallow whats palatable and spit the rest out into the slops bucket( no, we do not eat like that in Oztralia)
I'm blowed if I can see any reason to digest anything that I don't consider palatable,
And nor should anyone else here..
You can insulate from reality here so easily or you can question others beliefs and reasoning which in turn causes one to question ones own reasoning and beliefs.
I have had my beliefs challenged so many times, that with the reasoning given, I have altered my opinions on so many issues since being on PE and therein lies it's beauty.
I, recognise that it is a social forum but also a learning forum, one I doubt has or will be equalled.
So, it still begs the question, with what justification would you lump non-op's together as homosexual and with what justification would you lump post-op as Lesbian?
By the bye, the reference to your wife was totally unwarranted and I do apologise using her as such.

Oh Goody, another tangent, " I think there is a different mindset between a girl who is fulltime that wants srs and someone who is fulltime that wants to stay a non-op.
I know Julia and Connie have strong opinion on that, I never,ever not wanted SRS from Day 1 of understanding that I was Transgendered, a mere 5 years ago.
The nearest I might come to an opinion on that is what woman would want a penis and testicles, only a man wants his "manhood"
I know you will reflect the liberating feeling it was to have an Orchiectomy, painful though it was. I reckon my surgeon had this male abhorrence of anyone losing their manhood and to "teach" me a lesson he stretched my testicles like a rubber band and went *snip*.
I didn't go black and blue, I went straight black for the next few weeks, ouch, no, double ouch!!
C'est. la vie

You have strong arguments Michelle and I like you for that, funny ideas on some things, but..........
That's called diversity, not adversity, and I love that.
ps.
Another of my silly sayings, plagiarised naturally, " I say what I think and I think what I say."
Don't ever believe I am "nice", I am inherently honest, sometimes it has an appearance of being nice,
hahaha

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